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	<title>Comments on: Map the Mess</title>
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	<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess</link>
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		<title>By: John Ettorre</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1751</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ettorre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I should have mentioned those two cities in question with Newhouse-owned papers: New Orleans and Cleveland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have mentioned those two cities in question with Newhouse-owned papers: New Orleans and Cleveland.</p>
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		<title>By: John Ettorre</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1750</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ettorre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Note that two of the three cities you mention, Ed, have Newhouse-owned newspapers, which have tended to make their peace with rather than expose regional and municipal corruption. Where strong, aggressive, fearless newspapers exist, systemic, large-scale political corruption is much harder, if not impossible, to sustain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that two of the three cities you mention, Ed, have Newhouse-owned newspapers, which have tended to make their peace with rather than expose regional and municipal corruption. Where strong, aggressive, fearless newspapers exist, systemic, large-scale political corruption is much harder, if not impossible, to sustain.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark W. "Some Guy on Bridge" Schumann</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1749</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark W. "Some Guy on Bridge" Schumann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/?p=165#comment-1749</guid>
		<description>Ed,

I agree that &quot;new approaches to governance&quot; are possible, and needed. Do you agree that NA2Gs can&#039;t be implemented when the resources are controlled by crooks?

I bet the other guy&#039;s bribes and coercion will beat your &quot;new approaches&quot; every time.

If you disagree, I honestly want to know how you propose a really inclusive planning process can work in an atmosphere of criminality. That would be really cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>I agree that &#8220;new approaches to governance&#8221; are possible, and needed. Do you agree that NA2Gs can&#8217;t be implemented when the resources are controlled by crooks?</p>
<p>I bet the other guy&#8217;s bribes and coercion will beat your &#8220;new approaches&#8221; every time.</p>
<p>If you disagree, I honestly want to know how you propose a really inclusive planning process can work in an atmosphere of criminality. That would be really cool.</p>
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		<title>By: jmurray</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1747</link>
		<dc:creator>jmurray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tom, I don&#039;t feel guilty. However, I ascribe to the notion of Original Sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, I don&#8217;t feel guilty. However, I ascribe to the notion of Original Sin.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Morrison</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1745</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Morrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/?p=165#comment-1745</guid>
		<description>Mark: 

I agree with you to a point. 

Corruption kills economic development. That fact is well established. 

(There is overwhelming statistical evidence that connects high levels of corruption with lower economic performance. See &lt;a href=&quot;//www.worldbank.org/wbi/governance/pdf/wei.pdf”&quot;&gt;Corruption in Economic Development: Beneficial Grease, Minor Annoyance, or Major Obstacle?&lt;/a&gt;)

Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans...These are cities plagued by a culture of public abuse for private gain. 

At the same time, new approaches to governance are possible.  That&#039;s, I think, where I depart from your view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark: </p>
<p>I agree with you to a point. </p>
<p>Corruption kills economic development. That fact is well established. </p>
<p>(There is overwhelming statistical evidence that connects high levels of corruption with lower economic performance. See <a href="//www.worldbank.org/wbi/governance/pdf/wei.pdf”">Corruption in Economic Development: Beneficial Grease, Minor Annoyance, or Major Obstacle?</a>)</p>
<p>Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans&#8230;These are cities plagued by a culture of public abuse for private gain. </p>
<p>At the same time, new approaches to governance are possible.  That&#8217;s, I think, where I depart from your view.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark W. "Some Guy on Bridge" Schumann</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark W. "Some Guy on Bridge" Schumann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/?p=165#comment-1742</guid>
		<description>I was recently hearing (admittedly secondhand) some stories about an acquaintance who seems to have a lot of challenges in life. (Okay, it&#039;s gossip. Fine.)

After about the third thing-that-didn&#039;t-go-right story, I said, &quot;You know what? She keeps doing things &lt;em&gt;that can&#039;t possibly work out for her&lt;/em&gt;. That&#039;s the problem.&quot;

That&#039;s Cleveland in a nutshell. We knew that a big dual-stadium project wasn&#039;t really going to serve the city, but we did it anyway. We knew that Tower City would eat downtown, but we did it anyway. We know that a new convention center will suck millions annually for decades to come--and that the Medical Mart idea is a fraud--but... yeah.

On the other hand, I&#039;m not so sure a lack of ideas and discussion and consensus from the community is the underlying problem. I believe a great deal of it is plain and simple corruption, which (among other things) kills the incentive to innovate. Why should anyone participate in policy discussions when we know the outcome is guaranteed to be crooked? What good is finding the right path when we know it won&#039;t be followed?

Jail the crooks first. The rest will follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was recently hearing (admittedly secondhand) some stories about an acquaintance who seems to have a lot of challenges in life. (Okay, it&#8217;s gossip. Fine.)</p>
<p>After about the third thing-that-didn&#8217;t-go-right story, I said, &#8220;You know what? She keeps doing things <em>that can&#8217;t possibly work out for her</em>. That&#8217;s the problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s Cleveland in a nutshell. We knew that a big dual-stadium project wasn&#8217;t really going to serve the city, but we did it anyway. We knew that Tower City would eat downtown, but we did it anyway. We know that a new convention center will suck millions annually for decades to come&#8211;and that the Medical Mart idea is a fraud&#8211;but&#8230; yeah.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I&#8217;m not so sure a lack of ideas and discussion and consensus from the community is the underlying problem. I believe a great deal of it is plain and simple corruption, which (among other things) kills the incentive to innovate. Why should anyone participate in policy discussions when we know the outcome is guaranteed to be crooked? What good is finding the right path when we know it won&#8217;t be followed?</p>
<p>Jail the crooks first. The rest will follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Z(ych)</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1741</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Z(ych)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/?p=165#comment-1741</guid>
		<description>J:  Do you consider yourself entirely guilt-free?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J:  Do you consider yourself entirely guilt-free?</p>
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		<title>By: lmcshane</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1739</link>
		<dc:creator>lmcshane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Should we laugh or cry?  Depends on my mood.  Back to the crazy world of real people now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should we laugh or cry?  Depends on my mood.  Back to the crazy world of real people now.</p>
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		<title>By: George Nemeth</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1732</link>
		<dc:creator>George Nemeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/?p=165#comment-1732</guid>
		<description>@lmcshane What&#039;s there to laugh about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@lmcshane What&#8217;s there to laugh about?</p>
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		<title>By: jmurray</title>
		<link>http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2008/map-the-mess/comment-page-1#comment-1731</link>
		<dc:creator>jmurray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you, Tom. I have been arguing for some time that there is a large set of people with preconceived views who ignore evidence that is contrary to their political philosophies. As much as I have tried to point that out here, and elsewhere, I sometimes fear that I am pushing on a string.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Tom. I have been arguing for some time that there is a large set of people with preconceived views who ignore evidence that is contrary to their political philosophies. As much as I have tried to point that out here, and elsewhere, I sometimes fear that I am pushing on a string.</p>
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